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Stalled reforms expose fragility of post-war Bosnia
11 September 2007, 11:29 CET
(SARAJEVO) - Bosnia's stability continues to be threatened by stalled reforms as Muslim, Serbs and Croats remain far apart on the future of the country 12 years after war, observers warn.
Rather than focus on police force reforms crucial to Bosnia's European integration, leaders of the three former warring ethnic groups are questioning the country's form, and some even its existence.
"The problem is that there is no agreement on what kind of country they want," Dimitris Kourkoulas, head of the European Commission office in Bosnia, told AFP.
"They all fear that accepting compromise on the police reform will somehow reduce their bargaining position in talks about constitutional reform."
Since its 1992-1995 war, Bosnia has consisted of two entities -- Republika Srpska and the Muslim-Croat Federation -- each with their own government, parliament and police.
Efforts by the international community to strip away crippling bureaucracy caused by the division have met with strong opposition from Serb leaders who wish to retain local powers.
Adding to the conundrum in the past week was a demand by leading Bosnian Croat politician Dragan Covic for the creation of "three federal units" including one for his people.
The statement was backed by Republika Srpska, whose Prime Minister Milorad Dodik has been warned by the international community about making repeated calls for statehood.
But international officials have been equally dismissive of Muslim requests for centralisation and Republika Srpska's abolition.
"It's time for an end to the practice of questioning the existence of the state and its component parts ... no one can secede unilaterally and no one can do away unilaterally with the entities," the international community's top envoy in Bosnia Miroslav Lajcak said.
The international community "would not remain passive in the face of provocative statements or acts," Lajcak warned.
"We must go step by step -- and police reforms are the first step."
However, some analysts believe it is wrong to insist on separate reforms before a constitutional overhaul.
"Europe must understand that Bosnia must fully and clearly define its identity before even considering EU membership," Vlastimir Mijovic, political columnist and editor-in-chief of the Oslobodjenje daily, told AFP.
"In that sense, priority should be given to issues over which the war had been fought including ethnic groups' status, territorial rights and level of centralisation."
Serb support for the "old idea of a third entity" for Croats reflected their desire for Bosnia's ethnic division, he warned.
During Bosnia's war, Croats proclaimed their "Republic of Herceg-Bosna" -- a self-styled statelet that was dissolved into the federation as part of the Dayton peace accords.
In 2001, Croats led an autonomy campaign that was halted by the international community and contributed to the diminishing political influence of Croat parties.
Police reforms are among key conditions set by the European Union for Bosnia to seal a so-called Stabilisation and Association Agreement with the 27-nation bloc.
EU warned last week that Bosnia risked falling farther behind its neighbours and ending up last on the road to Europe.
But instead of encouraging common ground, a tempting Brussels offer to approve the agreement with Bosnia if its leaders agree to reunify its police forces has rekindled the explosive rhetoric of the past.
After more than two years of tough talks, the police reform process faced yet another deadlock earlier this month when Muslims and Serbs rejected Lajcak's proposal for a breakthrough.
Serbs insist on maintaining control of their own police, while Muslims demand that local forces be abolished and put under state authority.
For political analyst Tanja Topic, Bosnia's hopes of avoiding becoming "the black hole of Europe" and a better future now rests in the hands of external forces.
"It's a paradox that we want to join the EU and, at the same time, count on them to take us there, but our politicians only understand the language of enforcement and sackings," Topic said.
"However, integration with the EU would probably absorb the shock of internal Bosnian disagreements and ensure the country's long-term perspective."
Text and Picture Copyright 2007 AFP. All other Copyright 2007 EUbusiness Ltd. All rights reserved. This material is intended solely for personal use. Any other reproduction, publication or redistribution of this material without the written agreement of the copyright owner is strictly forbidden and any breach of copyright will be considered actionable.
Pseudo-ethnic term
Posted by
Mesha Dzinovic
at
12 September 2007, 00:01 CET
I have noticed that you have been using the pseudo-ethnic, religious term \"Muslim\" to describe the members of distinct ethnic, national group called the Bosniaks (or Bosnians, as some say).
As one of my favorite source of news I just couldn’t ignore misuse and use of term ‘Muslims’ when you referred (for long time) to the Bosniaks as one of the native ethnic groups, peoples, in Bosnia. That pseudo-ethnic and religious term is very deceptive in the context of the Balkan politics, when is applied to the historically legitimate ethnic group, namely the Bosniaks. The fact that entire national, ethic group is named, labeled as religious group especially in complex, often xenophobic and competing web of the Balkan nationalist politics, has negative echo and has been and still being used as justification for war, war crimes and acts of genocide (as proclaimed by International Court of Justice-ICJ)
By using the religious term instead of the ethnic term, you in essence, deny us our ethnicity, our history, our country, our territory and our nationhood. Through the course of history the Bosniaks have been a distinct community, a distinct nation, peacefully coexisting with other ethnic or national groups in the country of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Nobody gave us the ethnicity, the nationhood and in many European languages there is a word the Bosniak to describe us and it has been around for many, many years. So that word the Bosniak is not a recent invention, as some say. Besides we have always called ourselves the Bosniaks never “the Muslims” and with all respect, I think we know better. In addition, in terms of national or ethnic make-up, officially the Bosniaks (please note the name) are one of the ethnic groups that constitute country of Bosnia and Herzegovina with Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats.
Your news organization/publication is well respected and very objective. To use term "the Muslims" for the ethnic group, there is not a historical justification and makes no sense. To put it simply, there is no \"Muslimania\", there is Bosnia, which is made up of several ethnic groups. In terms of religion, some are Christians some Muslims some Jewish etc.
I think in your case it is just lack of information and not historical perspective.
After all there is an officially recognized language in Bosnia called Bosniak/Bosnian and someone must speak that language, right? As we know, a language is usually named after the ethnic group or nation that speaks it. There are dictionaries for Bosnian-English and other European languages as well. How about well informed organizations like CIA…go to that web site and see what they say, about ethnic groups, terms etc
According to CIA: ethnic composition facts in Bosnia –Bosniak 48% ,Serbs 37,1% , Croats 14,3%, other 0,6% in 2000 census.
There is academic, historical political, ethnic dimension for justification of Bosniaks’ position regarding this issue but there is logic, common sense as well.
Using that pseudo-ethnic and religious term to define an ethic group simply is wrong and sometimes illogical. Read the sampling below, please.
“In most of the Bosnian urban areas, Muslims are atheists. !??!! Here in Bosnia, there have been around 250 Muslims that they had declared to be a practicing Buddhists??….or…That Muslim in my class is a Christian!??
Typical oxymoron! What a contradiction! Would you agree?
Twisted Logic Behind:
What is the logic behind denial of ethnicity to Bosniaks?
Very simple! Twisted logic is behind. There are the Bosnian Serbs and the Croats in Bosnia and some ‘Muslims’ in Bosnia. Having named and referred to the Bosniaks with pseudo-ethnic term as ‘Muslims’, (with capital ‘M’ to reinforce, like you are a distinct group) and according to some nationalist, racist and xenophobic ideologies: ‘we know that Muslims belong to Asia ,Africa etc... Or their respective countries, but not in Europe, not in Bosnia ‘ !? So the Muslims do not belong to Bosnia, they not part of the native European civilization, even being native European and Slavic people. Needless to say, the most of European heritage is a Christian one; the almost entire cultural and social fabrics of Europe are mostly Christian.
Denying ethnicity and homeland to the Bosniaks and using above mentioned justification is a twisted logic as part of wider ideology of national purity and superiority!! like one nation ,one state ,that was used in Bosnia during ethnic cleansing of their native inhabitants, Bosniaks, in the war in 90’
As we know, in historical terms the Muslims and Islam did not belong in Europe. It has been some peripheral impact (Iberian Peninsula) and some native European peoples like Bosniaks (formerly Christians and members of Bosnian Church*) converted to Islam in 15th and 16th century during Ottoman invasions and intrusions. (Nowadays in time of globalization we are witnessing huge exchanges on all levels everywhere.)
….so we the Bosniaks have to insist to be called and referred as Bosniaks, our rightful name and proper ethnic term in our country of Bosnia, we need to share our country equally with other ethnic groups they feel that Bosnia is their country and homeland. The Bosniaks as a native European, Slavic people should be a part of the Commune of European peoples, as they have been peacefully for many centuries.
As one of my favorite source of news I just couldn’t ignore misuse and use of term ‘Muslims’ when you referred (for long time) to the Bosniaks as one of the native ethnic groups, peoples, in Bosnia. That pseudo-ethnic and religious term is very deceptive in the context of the Balkan politics, when is applied to the historically legitimate ethnic group, namely the Bosniaks. The fact that entire national, ethic group is named, labeled as religious group especially in complex, often xenophobic and competing web of the Balkan nationalist politics, has negative echo and has been and still being used as justification for war, war crimes and acts of genocide (as proclaimed by International Court of Justice-ICJ)
By using the religious term instead of the ethnic term, you in essence, deny us our ethnicity, our history, our country, our territory and our nationhood. Through the course of history the Bosniaks have been a distinct community, a distinct nation, peacefully coexisting with other ethnic or national groups in the country of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Nobody gave us the ethnicity, the nationhood and in many European languages there is a word the Bosniak to describe us and it has been around for many, many years. So that word the Bosniak is not a recent invention, as some say. Besides we have always called ourselves the Bosniaks never “the Muslims” and with all respect, I think we know better. In addition, in terms of national or ethnic make-up, officially the Bosniaks (please note the name) are one of the ethnic groups that constitute country of Bosnia and Herzegovina with Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats.
Your news organization/publication is well respected and very objective. To use term "the Muslims" for the ethnic group, there is not a historical justification and makes no sense. To put it simply, there is no \"Muslimania\", there is Bosnia, which is made up of several ethnic groups. In terms of religion, some are Christians some Muslims some Jewish etc.
I think in your case it is just lack of information and not historical perspective.
After all there is an officially recognized language in Bosnia called Bosniak/Bosnian and someone must speak that language, right? As we know, a language is usually named after the ethnic group or nation that speaks it. There are dictionaries for Bosnian-English and other European languages as well. How about well informed organizations like CIA…go to that web site and see what they say, about ethnic groups, terms etc
According to CIA: ethnic composition facts in Bosnia –Bosniak 48% ,Serbs 37,1% , Croats 14,3%, other 0,6% in 2000 census.
There is academic, historical political, ethnic dimension for justification of Bosniaks’ position regarding this issue but there is logic, common sense as well.
Using that pseudo-ethnic and religious term to define an ethic group simply is wrong and sometimes illogical. Read the sampling below, please.
“In most of the Bosnian urban areas, Muslims are atheists. !??!! Here in Bosnia, there have been around 250 Muslims that they had declared to be a practicing Buddhists??….or…That Muslim in my class is a Christian!??
Typical oxymoron! What a contradiction! Would you agree?
Twisted Logic Behind:
What is the logic behind denial of ethnicity to Bosniaks?
Very simple! Twisted logic is behind. There are the Bosnian Serbs and the Croats in Bosnia and some ‘Muslims’ in Bosnia. Having named and referred to the Bosniaks with pseudo-ethnic term as ‘Muslims’, (with capital ‘M’ to reinforce, like you are a distinct group) and according to some nationalist, racist and xenophobic ideologies: ‘we know that Muslims belong to Asia ,Africa etc... Or their respective countries, but not in Europe, not in Bosnia ‘ !? So the Muslims do not belong to Bosnia, they not part of the native European civilization, even being native European and Slavic people. Needless to say, the most of European heritage is a Christian one; the almost entire cultural and social fabrics of Europe are mostly Christian.
Denying ethnicity and homeland to the Bosniaks and using above mentioned justification is a twisted logic as part of wider ideology of national purity and superiority!! like one nation ,one state ,that was used in Bosnia during ethnic cleansing of their native inhabitants, Bosniaks, in the war in 90’
As we know, in historical terms the Muslims and Islam did not belong in Europe. It has been some peripheral impact (Iberian Peninsula) and some native European peoples like Bosniaks (formerly Christians and members of Bosnian Church*) converted to Islam in 15th and 16th century during Ottoman invasions and intrusions. (Nowadays in time of globalization we are witnessing huge exchanges on all levels everywhere.)
….so we the Bosniaks have to insist to be called and referred as Bosniaks, our rightful name and proper ethnic term in our country of Bosnia, we need to share our country equally with other ethnic groups they feel that Bosnia is their country and homeland. The Bosniaks as a native European, Slavic people should be a part of the Commune of European peoples, as they have been peacefully for many centuries.
Pseudo-Ethnic Term
Posted by
Nicholas Klinsman
at
22 November 2007, 07:16 CET
Religious terms and ethnic terms are one in the same in Bosna-Hercegovina. The truth of the matter is that the people you refer to as Bosniak are Muslim.
Furthermore, the term "Bosniak" is a fabrication in order to make it look like the Muslim population in Bosna-Hercegovina is in their historical homeland while the Serbian and Croatian populations are invaders or colonists from the neighboring countries of Serbia and Croatia. This could be used to justify hostile acts against Serbs and Croats by the Muslim population.
You are misleading people when you say that "we have always called ourselves Bosniaks." Many people in Bosnia used to refer to themselves as Bosnian, but those could be Serbian, Croatian, or Muslim. In the Yugoslav census before the war it clearly states that there were three distinct people living in the state of Bosna-Hercegovina and they are Moslems, Serbs, and Croats. Nowhere do we find a Bosniak. In fact, I have a copy of the ID card of the late Bosnian Muslim president Alija Izetbegovic. Under nationality he declares himself a Serb. You would think if anybody called himself a Bosniak it would be him, but he didn't because there was no such thing.
Moreover, how can Bosniak be a real term when their are many Muslims from the Hercegovina area. These would not evan have called themselves Bosnians much less Bosniaks.
Just because you tell a lie a 100 times doesn't mean it will ever become the truth. If you really want Bosnia-Hercegovina to be a peaceful and prosperous place with coexistance between people than start by being honest.
Furthermore, the term "Bosniak" is a fabrication in order to make it look like the Muslim population in Bosna-Hercegovina is in their historical homeland while the Serbian and Croatian populations are invaders or colonists from the neighboring countries of Serbia and Croatia. This could be used to justify hostile acts against Serbs and Croats by the Muslim population.
You are misleading people when you say that "we have always called ourselves Bosniaks." Many people in Bosnia used to refer to themselves as Bosnian, but those could be Serbian, Croatian, or Muslim. In the Yugoslav census before the war it clearly states that there were three distinct people living in the state of Bosna-Hercegovina and they are Moslems, Serbs, and Croats. Nowhere do we find a Bosniak. In fact, I have a copy of the ID card of the late Bosnian Muslim president Alija Izetbegovic. Under nationality he declares himself a Serb. You would think if anybody called himself a Bosniak it would be him, but he didn't because there was no such thing.
Moreover, how can Bosniak be a real term when their are many Muslims from the Hercegovina area. These would not evan have called themselves Bosnians much less Bosniaks.
Just because you tell a lie a 100 times doesn't mean it will ever become the truth. If you really want Bosnia-Hercegovina to be a peaceful and prosperous place with coexistance between people than start by being honest.
Pseudo-Ethnic Term
Posted by
meshadzinovic
at
24 November 2007, 23:05 CET
Dear Mr. Klinsman,
With respect,I am just curious -what is your interest in Bosnia and its ethnic make up, correct ethnic terminology?
Reading your letter besides prejudice against the Bosniaks I did not find any valid historical or academic comments.
I think you would welcome some historical facts, clarification about ethnic groups, definition of ethnicity and some history of term -the Bosniak from someone who actually lived in Bosnia.
First and foremost Mr. Klinsman you need to know what constitutes an ethnic group:
Definition (Wikipedia)
“An ethnic group or ethnicity is a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith 1987). Recognition by others as a distinct ethnic group is often a contributing factor to developing this bond of identification. Ethnic groups are also often united by common cultural, behavioral, linguistic, ritualistic, or religious traits.
An ethnic group may overlap or even coincide with a nation”
There is a strong correlation between ethnic identity and religion in Bosnia and Herzegovina. As is shown by the fact that 99% of Bosniaks are Muslims, 98% of Croats are Catholics whilst 99% of Serbs are Orthodox Christians.
So religion is sometimes just one of many factors that make certain group of people a distinct ethnic group.
Bosniaks are Muslims and when we discuss the ethnic make up of Bosnia we should use just ethnic terms for the peoples of Bosnia not mix religious and ethnic terms.
Bosnia is home to three ethnic "constituent peoples": Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats. A citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina is often identified in English as a Bosnian. This is a geographical based term for the inhabitants of Bosnia regardless of ethnicity.
Herzegovina is just geographical region of Bosnia. There is no such ethnicity as a Herzegovinian….just geographical one,. e.g. New Englander or Yankee in USA.
A short history of Bosnia and Herzegovina (henceforward referred to as “Bosnia”), Bosniaks and the term “Muslims”:
Bosniak-Official name
Ever since the “Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes” was created in 1918, Bosnia—which was an autonomous part of the Ottoman, and briefly the Austro-Hungarian, Empires—and its ethnic groups (Bosniaks, Bosnian Serbs, and Bosnian Croats) were annexed to the new kingdom. Some referred to this as a unification of the South Slavs. This was confirmed by the Treaty of Versailles.
The Bosniaks had became a minority in the Kingdom (they used be a relative majority in Bosnia) and that change made Bosniaks a minority and they subsequently were striped of many rights such as : ethnic name, land possessions, etc.. however they were allowed were weak religious institutions but not ethnic ones like other ethnic groups, nations in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia (in 1929 country name was changed to kingdom of Yugoslavia).Officially there was not any Bosniaks in Bosnia or in the Kingdom, there were muslims (yes, with small ‘m’ )
During 60’s there were demands by Bosniaks, one of the native ethnic groups in Bosnia and largest one as well, somehow to resolve that problem of not being recognized as an ethic (and Slavic native group or nation). Unfortunately weak Bosniaks’ politicians (the communists) adapted that would be ’solution’, unaware or not of grave consequences .
So the Muslim (term) was given by the Bosnian communist leaders , to the Bosniaks to appease them a little and up to that point Bosniaks could not claim separate, different ethnicity and they were officially and ethnically Croats or Serbs but in terms of religion they were the Muslims. Serbian or Croatian ethnicity was officially imposed on them.
After 1968, there is the second ‘act’ in short history of this TERM ‘the Muslims’:…given by the Yugoslavian communist regime in 1968 (former Yugoslavia-so called ‘the Second Yugoslavia’) as a compromise (Serbs & Croats-could not agree to let Bosniaks use again their old, legitimate ethic name. If Bosniaks have had their ethic name back, that would have implied that Bosnia was their homeland, country, state, just by the virtue of the name!! As it was the case with the rest of states of Yugoslavian federation or union (from 1945 till 1991): Serbs have Serbia, Croats has Croatia, Slovenes had Slovenia, Macedonians had Macedonia, Montenegrins had Monte Negro but only Bosnia could not have Bosniaks, instead Bosnia had the Muslims?? Croats and Serbs.
Even then the seeds of territorial pretensions during the most fair administration –socialist government of Yugoslavia is more then evident and the first step was naming an ethnic group, nation (Bosniaks) the Muslims .
What is the logic behind denial of ethnicity for Bosniaks? Very simple, having named the Bosniaks as ‘Muslims’,(with capital ‘M’to reinforce, like you are a distinct group but we know that Muslims belong to Asia ,Africa etc.. or their respective countries, but not in Europe, not in Bosnia!?
They replaced ethnic term with religious one. Having denied ethnicity to the Bosniaks consequently one denied legitimate right to homeland, native country and that act was the first step to eventually annex Bosnia in future planned and expected war.
With respect,I am just curious -what is your interest in Bosnia and its ethnic make up, correct ethnic terminology?
Reading your letter besides prejudice against the Bosniaks I did not find any valid historical or academic comments.
I think you would welcome some historical facts, clarification about ethnic groups, definition of ethnicity and some history of term -the Bosniak from someone who actually lived in Bosnia.
First and foremost Mr. Klinsman you need to know what constitutes an ethnic group:
Definition (Wikipedia)
“An ethnic group or ethnicity is a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith 1987). Recognition by others as a distinct ethnic group is often a contributing factor to developing this bond of identification. Ethnic groups are also often united by common cultural, behavioral, linguistic, ritualistic, or religious traits.
An ethnic group may overlap or even coincide with a nation”
There is a strong correlation between ethnic identity and religion in Bosnia and Herzegovina. As is shown by the fact that 99% of Bosniaks are Muslims, 98% of Croats are Catholics whilst 99% of Serbs are Orthodox Christians.
So religion is sometimes just one of many factors that make certain group of people a distinct ethnic group.
Bosniaks are Muslims and when we discuss the ethnic make up of Bosnia we should use just ethnic terms for the peoples of Bosnia not mix religious and ethnic terms.
Bosnia is home to three ethnic "constituent peoples": Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats. A citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina is often identified in English as a Bosnian. This is a geographical based term for the inhabitants of Bosnia regardless of ethnicity.
Herzegovina is just geographical region of Bosnia. There is no such ethnicity as a Herzegovinian….just geographical one,. e.g. New Englander or Yankee in USA.
A short history of Bosnia and Herzegovina (henceforward referred to as “Bosnia”), Bosniaks and the term “Muslims”:
Bosniak-Official name
Ever since the “Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes” was created in 1918, Bosnia—which was an autonomous part of the Ottoman, and briefly the Austro-Hungarian, Empires—and its ethnic groups (Bosniaks, Bosnian Serbs, and Bosnian Croats) were annexed to the new kingdom. Some referred to this as a unification of the South Slavs. This was confirmed by the Treaty of Versailles.
The Bosniaks had became a minority in the Kingdom (they used be a relative majority in Bosnia) and that change made Bosniaks a minority and they subsequently were striped of many rights such as : ethnic name, land possessions, etc.. however they were allowed were weak religious institutions but not ethnic ones like other ethnic groups, nations in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia (in 1929 country name was changed to kingdom of Yugoslavia).Officially there was not any Bosniaks in Bosnia or in the Kingdom, there were muslims (yes, with small ‘m’ )
During 60’s there were demands by Bosniaks, one of the native ethnic groups in Bosnia and largest one as well, somehow to resolve that problem of not being recognized as an ethic (and Slavic native group or nation). Unfortunately weak Bosniaks’ politicians (the communists) adapted that would be ’solution’, unaware or not of grave consequences .
So the Muslim (term) was given by the Bosnian communist leaders , to the Bosniaks to appease them a little and up to that point Bosniaks could not claim separate, different ethnicity and they were officially and ethnically Croats or Serbs but in terms of religion they were the Muslims. Serbian or Croatian ethnicity was officially imposed on them.
After 1968, there is the second ‘act’ in short history of this TERM ‘the Muslims’:…given by the Yugoslavian communist regime in 1968 (former Yugoslavia-so called ‘the Second Yugoslavia’) as a compromise (Serbs & Croats-could not agree to let Bosniaks use again their old, legitimate ethic name. If Bosniaks have had their ethic name back, that would have implied that Bosnia was their homeland, country, state, just by the virtue of the name!! As it was the case with the rest of states of Yugoslavian federation or union (from 1945 till 1991): Serbs have Serbia, Croats has Croatia, Slovenes had Slovenia, Macedonians had Macedonia, Montenegrins had Monte Negro but only Bosnia could not have Bosniaks, instead Bosnia had the Muslims?? Croats and Serbs.
Even then the seeds of territorial pretensions during the most fair administration –socialist government of Yugoslavia is more then evident and the first step was naming an ethnic group, nation (Bosniaks) the Muslims .
What is the logic behind denial of ethnicity for Bosniaks? Very simple, having named the Bosniaks as ‘Muslims’,(with capital ‘M’to reinforce, like you are a distinct group but we know that Muslims belong to Asia ,Africa etc.. or their respective countries, but not in Europe, not in Bosnia!?
They replaced ethnic term with religious one. Having denied ethnicity to the Bosniaks consequently one denied legitimate right to homeland, native country and that act was the first step to eventually annex Bosnia in future planned and expected war.
Pseudo Ethnic Term
Posted by
Nicholas Klinsman
at
26 November 2007, 05:50 CET
Hi Mesha,
I have to say you have a very beautiful name. However, I don’t think it’s fair for you to call me prejudiced just because I disagree with you. Much of what you've written is spin, and anybody with knowledge of Balkan history and a little common sense can see that. Let’s please stick to facts and logic to make our cases.
To begin with my opposition to the term Bosniak stems from the fact that it is a distortion, which tries to assume Bosnian Muslims are more indigenous and legitimate to Bosna-Hercegovina than Croats or Serbs.
You stated, “An ethnic group or ethnicity is a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith 1987).
From this statement you can conclude that Bosnian Muslims, Serbs, and Croats are all one ethnic group. However, we know the main difference between each of the above three groups is religion. I’m sure we can both more or less agree with that. Thereby, my earlier statement that says religion and ethnicity is one in the same in Bosna-Herecegovina is accurate.
As you and I both have stated, the people you call Bosniaks are Muslims from Bosnia. Thus, Bosniak=Bosnian Muslim. However, there were no traces of the Moslem religion in Bosna or Hercegovina until the Muslim Turks swept in from Asia and violently conquered the area. Therefore we can conclude that Bosniak is an introduced term that is not native to Bosna-Hercegovina.
Most Muslims in Bosna-Hercegovina are either Serbian Orthodox Christians or Catholic Croats that were converted to Islam during the Turkish occupation (Glenny 1992). Furthermore I’ve looked in many books related to Bosna Hercegovina and it is next to impossible to find a reference to this term Bosniak in anything written before 1993. On the other hand, Bosnian Muslim is often used. For that reason, it seems implausible to refer to Bosniak as an old and legitimate term.
However, I did find one reference to the term Bosniak. It seems that Bosniak was a term developed by officials of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in their latter stages in order to safeguard their interests in Bosna-Hercegovina from the national movements of Serbia and Croatia.
The term was extended and encouraged amongst all three of the main religious groups in Bosna, but the Austrians knew their best chance was with the Moslems, since unlike Serbs and Croats the Bosnian Moslems had no sponsor nation to look outside the borders (Malcolm 1994).
Hence the development of the term Bosniak was not due to ethnicity, but rather an artifact used as an anti Croat and anti Serbian medium. In other words, Bosnian Muslims have currently reinstated this term Bosniak to delegitimize the political and national rights of Croats and Serbs living in Bosna-Hercegovina. Ironically, this is what you accused me of wanting to do to Moslems, but in reality it’s what you’re doing to Serbs and Croats.
If we discuss these thing honestly and without spin my hope is that we can avoid all the tragedy from the past.
I have to say you have a very beautiful name. However, I don’t think it’s fair for you to call me prejudiced just because I disagree with you. Much of what you've written is spin, and anybody with knowledge of Balkan history and a little common sense can see that. Let’s please stick to facts and logic to make our cases.
To begin with my opposition to the term Bosniak stems from the fact that it is a distortion, which tries to assume Bosnian Muslims are more indigenous and legitimate to Bosna-Hercegovina than Croats or Serbs.
You stated, “An ethnic group or ethnicity is a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith 1987).
From this statement you can conclude that Bosnian Muslims, Serbs, and Croats are all one ethnic group. However, we know the main difference between each of the above three groups is religion. I’m sure we can both more or less agree with that. Thereby, my earlier statement that says religion and ethnicity is one in the same in Bosna-Herecegovina is accurate.
As you and I both have stated, the people you call Bosniaks are Muslims from Bosnia. Thus, Bosniak=Bosnian Muslim. However, there were no traces of the Moslem religion in Bosna or Hercegovina until the Muslim Turks swept in from Asia and violently conquered the area. Therefore we can conclude that Bosniak is an introduced term that is not native to Bosna-Hercegovina.
Most Muslims in Bosna-Hercegovina are either Serbian Orthodox Christians or Catholic Croats that were converted to Islam during the Turkish occupation (Glenny 1992). Furthermore I’ve looked in many books related to Bosna Hercegovina and it is next to impossible to find a reference to this term Bosniak in anything written before 1993. On the other hand, Bosnian Muslim is often used. For that reason, it seems implausible to refer to Bosniak as an old and legitimate term.
However, I did find one reference to the term Bosniak. It seems that Bosniak was a term developed by officials of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in their latter stages in order to safeguard their interests in Bosna-Hercegovina from the national movements of Serbia and Croatia.
The term was extended and encouraged amongst all three of the main religious groups in Bosna, but the Austrians knew their best chance was with the Moslems, since unlike Serbs and Croats the Bosnian Moslems had no sponsor nation to look outside the borders (Malcolm 1994).
Hence the development of the term Bosniak was not due to ethnicity, but rather an artifact used as an anti Croat and anti Serbian medium. In other words, Bosnian Muslims have currently reinstated this term Bosniak to delegitimize the political and national rights of Croats and Serbs living in Bosna-Hercegovina. Ironically, this is what you accused me of wanting to do to Moslems, but in reality it’s what you’re doing to Serbs and Croats.
If we discuss these thing honestly and without spin my hope is that we can avoid all the tragedy from the past.
Pseudo Ethnic Term
Posted by
meshadzinovic
at
01 December 2007, 23:31 CET
Dear Mr. Klinsman,
Thanks for the comments ..and..interest ..respectfully I do not agree with most of it.
By the way, Mr.Misha Glenny is not an authority for the Balkan history (my opinion)
You mentioned Mr. Noel Malcom and his book from 1994 (Short history of Bosnia and Hercegovina)I suggest to read it again.
Please read below(not by me it is by well respected sources)
"
www.cc.columbia.edu/cu/cup/ See Bosnia and Herzegovina
Columbia Encyclopedia
The ethnically diverse population speaks Bosnian, Croatian, and Serbian (all dialects of Serbo-Croatian). The country's Bosniaks (about 48%, mainly Muslim), Serbs (about 37% of the population, largely Eastern Orthodox), and Croats (about 14%, mostly Roman Catholics) formerly formed a complex patchwork, but civil war and the flight of refugees forcibly segregated much of the population.
C.I.A. World Factbook country profile
Ethnic groups:
Bosniak 48%, Serb 37.1%, Croat 14.3%, other 0.6% (2000
Religions:
Muslim 40%, Orthodox 31%, Roman Catholic 15%, other 14%
Languages:
Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian
U.S. State Department -- history and overview
People
Ethnic groups: Bosniak 48.3%, Serb 34.0%, Croat 15.4%, others 2.3%. (Source: UNDP Human Development Report 2002--Bosnia-Herzegovina)
Religions: Muslim (40%); Orthodox (31%); Catholic (15%); Protestant (4%); other (10%).
Languages: Bosnian, Serbian, Croatian (formerly "Serbo-Croatian").
BBC country profile
Its three main ethnic groups are Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs.
The 1995 Dayton peace accord, which ended the Bosnian war, set up two separate entities; a Bosniak-Croat Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the Bosnian Serb Republic, or Republika Srpska, each with its own president, government, parliament, police and other bodies. "
Debating the Bosnian ethnicities can be rather confusing task ....we are witnessing an evolution of the ethnic groups of Bosnia and it is a work in progress....
As long as we do not intrude on other ethnic groups' rights, let us be what we want!
Best
Mesha Dzinovic
Thanks for the comments ..and..interest ..respectfully I do not agree with most of it.
By the way, Mr.Misha Glenny is not an authority for the Balkan history (my opinion)
You mentioned Mr. Noel Malcom and his book from 1994 (Short history of Bosnia and Hercegovina)I suggest to read it again.
Please read below(not by me it is by well respected sources)
"
www.cc.columbia.edu/cu/cup/ See Bosnia and Herzegovina
Columbia Encyclopedia
The ethnically diverse population speaks Bosnian, Croatian, and Serbian (all dialects of Serbo-Croatian). The country's Bosniaks (about 48%, mainly Muslim), Serbs (about 37% of the population, largely Eastern Orthodox), and Croats (about 14%, mostly Roman Catholics) formerly formed a complex patchwork, but civil war and the flight of refugees forcibly segregated much of the population.
C.I.A. World Factbook country profile
Ethnic groups:
Bosniak 48%, Serb 37.1%, Croat 14.3%, other 0.6% (2000
Religions:
Muslim 40%, Orthodox 31%, Roman Catholic 15%, other 14%
Languages:
Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian
U.S. State Department -- history and overview
People
Ethnic groups: Bosniak 48.3%, Serb 34.0%, Croat 15.4%, others 2.3%. (Source: UNDP Human Development Report 2002--Bosnia-Herzegovina)
Religions: Muslim (40%); Orthodox (31%); Catholic (15%); Protestant (4%); other (10%).
Languages: Bosnian, Serbian, Croatian (formerly "Serbo-Croatian").
BBC country profile
Its three main ethnic groups are Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs.
The 1995 Dayton peace accord, which ended the Bosnian war, set up two separate entities; a Bosniak-Croat Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the Bosnian Serb Republic, or Republika Srpska, each with its own president, government, parliament, police and other bodies. "
Debating the Bosnian ethnicities can be rather confusing task ....we are witnessing an evolution of the ethnic groups of Bosnia and it is a work in progress....
As long as we do not intrude on other ethnic groups' rights, let us be what we want!
Best
Mesha Dzinovic
Pseudo Ethnic term
Posted by
Nicholas Klinsman
at
02 December 2007, 09:22 CET
Dear Mesha,
You say that you don't agree with most of what I say, but you offer no historical evidence to dispute the fact that Bosniak is not a native, or legitimate term to the Bosnian Muslim population.
Not one of your sources can be considered historical references. At best they can be described as multimedia, and in the 1990s those same sources had information in them that was completely different.
Furthermore, you ignore the discussion that Bosniak is a term created for the sole purpose of harming the national rights of the Christian Serb and Croat populations by falsely making them appear as non-natives in Bosna. That is why your statement below is very ominous for the future of that region.
"We are witnessing an evolution of the ethnic groups of Bosnia and it is a work in progress...."
Do your work in progress plans include destroying the other ethnic groups in Bosna-Hercegovina? If you think I'm over reacting than just look at what your late Bosnian Muslim leader Alija Izetbegovic had to say about the Christian future in Bosna-Hercegovina in his book The Islamic Declaration.
"There can be no peace or coexistence between the "Islamic faith" and non- Islamic societies and political institutions...." This is not some rural drunk saying this mind you, but rather the president of the Bosnian Muslims and founder of your country.
All in all debating the Bosnian ethnicities is not a complicated task, if you stick to the truth.
You say that you don't agree with most of what I say, but you offer no historical evidence to dispute the fact that Bosniak is not a native, or legitimate term to the Bosnian Muslim population.
Not one of your sources can be considered historical references. At best they can be described as multimedia, and in the 1990s those same sources had information in them that was completely different.
Furthermore, you ignore the discussion that Bosniak is a term created for the sole purpose of harming the national rights of the Christian Serb and Croat populations by falsely making them appear as non-natives in Bosna. That is why your statement below is very ominous for the future of that region.
"We are witnessing an evolution of the ethnic groups of Bosnia and it is a work in progress...."
Do your work in progress plans include destroying the other ethnic groups in Bosna-Hercegovina? If you think I'm over reacting than just look at what your late Bosnian Muslim leader Alija Izetbegovic had to say about the Christian future in Bosna-Hercegovina in his book The Islamic Declaration.
"There can be no peace or coexistence between the "Islamic faith" and non- Islamic societies and political institutions...." This is not some rural drunk saying this mind you, but rather the president of the Bosnian Muslims and founder of your country.
All in all debating the Bosnian ethnicities is not a complicated task, if you stick to the truth.
Muslims
Posted by
Nicholas Klinsman
at
22 November 2007, 06:22 CET
When you say Bosnian than you could be talking about a person either Serbian Orthodox, Croatian Catholic, or Muslim. France and England are distinct nationalities with distinct languages so nobody would refer to them as Catholic or Anglican. In Bosnia-Hercegovina the differences between the three groups is religion so in order to identify them, religion is obviously what is used.
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Muslims