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Macedonia firm on name in dispute with Greece
25 October 2007, 21:19 CET
(SKOPJE) - Top Macedonian officials said Thursday they would not accept any attempts to change the name of their tiny Balkan nation despite a Greek warning that Athens would block Skopje's bid to join NATO and the European Union, media reported.
Macedonian President Branko Crvenkovski, Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski and the leading negotiator in the dispute with Greece, Nikola Dimitrov, "have a unanimous stance that no one can change the name of the state," private TV A1 reported.
Greece has for some 15 years refused to recognize the name of the former Yugoslav republic because it is the same as the northern Greek province of Macedonia.
Negotiations have been under way since 1993 under UN auspices to resolve the dispute, but have so far failed to reach a solution.
Macedonia joined the United Nations as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, or FYROM, but several countries including the United States, China, Russia and Turkey have recognized its constitutional name of Macedonia.
Earlier this month, Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis appealed to Skopje to reach a compromise over using the name Macedonia.
She called on Skopje "to advance on this question," underlining that NATO was due to invite the Balkan nation to join the military alliance in early 2008.
During the more than 15-year argument between the two countries many names have been proposed -- New Macedonia, North Macedonia, Macedonia of Vardar (referring to the river that crosses the country) and finally, Macedonia-Skopje Republic, which was rejected by Skopje in 2005.
Skopje wants the name Macedonian Republic, which is found in the constitution, to be used in international relations, with the exception of its relations with Athens, where an acceptable name for both parties would be used.
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Mistake
Posted by
Stoyan Antonov
at
05 May 2008, 02:07 CET
Actually Fyrom wants large swathes of Bulgaria, Greece, Albania, and even more - some very popular personalities in particular Tzar Samuil, Gotze Delchev and more. Before some 10 years interest groups argued on the Net there were some 2 miliion ethnic Macedonians (not Bulgarians) in Bulgaria, after that the claim was reduced to about 180000, and after that about 2000-3000 people declared Bulgarian as mother language and Macedonian origin. There were disclosers in Bulgaria that Fyrom sponsored activists raided home nights and tried to threatened local people to pledge Macedonian identity. The idea for Macedonian nation was deeply sponsored by Commintern - by Stalin and Tito. Many Bulgarians were forced to drop their national identity by the KGB in South West Bulgaria, my late uncle was born their. I can say Fyrom was first recognized by Bulgaria and were helped them internationally, especially as Albanian conplex issue arouse in Macedonia and even plans for partition were discussed. Fyrom's territorial integrity was supported by Bulgaria. I can say Bulgarians in Fyrom are being tortured by police - arrested, beaten, intimidated on their jobs.
I agree
Posted by
eg. John Smith
at
26 October 2007, 19:20 CET
I agree completely with Ms. Zana Popovska-Bozinovska. This is very important for Macedonia and you shouldn't write something before checking the facts. If you don't know what you are talking about, then better don't say anything. The name of a country is not something you buy, try it and if you don't like it you return it to the store. This is something which identifies the country and its people even when the country is ocupied by someone else. It's a BIG deal, especially for a small and weak, but very proud country and people. And you should show little respect for that and not play the Greek game. If they are members of NATO and EU, you shouldn't support them in everything. You should be objective and truthfull to the facts.
Thank You.
Thank You.
The FYROM Game
Posted by
John Chrysos
at
29 October 2007, 15:20 CET
In response to the previous comments I feel obliged to add the following:
FYROM admits that the name dispute and it's claim over the name "Macedonia" is based only on geographic connotations with the ancient Greek Macedonian nation and has no connection ethnographically, historically or otherwise with Greek people. A claim as such in my opinion is unsubstantiated.
Nonetheless it is important to understand their motivations for this behaviour. The main reason FYROM is pushing so hard for recognition is understandably the substantial minority (almost majority) of Albanian population in the country. FYROM being a newly formed nation needs something to hold together its national identity... However I fear that FYROM has chosen the wrong way to do this as by expropriating a potential strategic ally history will not resolve their future strategic issues in a sustainable manner. Let's hope that FYROM will not have the same ending as Kosovo...
Regards,
FYROM admits that the name dispute and it's claim over the name "Macedonia" is based only on geographic connotations with the ancient Greek Macedonian nation and has no connection ethnographically, historically or otherwise with Greek people. A claim as such in my opinion is unsubstantiated.
Nonetheless it is important to understand their motivations for this behaviour. The main reason FYROM is pushing so hard for recognition is understandably the substantial minority (almost majority) of Albanian population in the country. FYROM being a newly formed nation needs something to hold together its national identity... However I fear that FYROM has chosen the wrong way to do this as by expropriating a potential strategic ally history will not resolve their future strategic issues in a sustainable manner. Let's hope that FYROM will not have the same ending as Kosovo...
Regards,
Wicked games
Posted by
Vega Byte
at
30 October 2007, 16:10 CET
A nation has the right to choose its own name; it can't be that a third party (here Greece) is the one to decide which name a country supposed to have.
@Chrysos: you can use FYROM as often as you want, the fact is still there: it's a country which decided to be called as it has been called always: Macedonia!
Saludos
@Chrysos: you can use FYROM as often as you want, the fact is still there: it's a country which decided to be called as it has been called always: Macedonia!
Saludos
A nation has the right to choose its own name
Posted by
John Chrysos
at
30 October 2007, 16:27 CET
Imagine a hypothetical scenario where an arabic minority in Southern France near the Spanish Borders gains their independence from France and decide to call themselves "Pais Basque" even thought they are not Basques with clearly the only reason for doing that is to follow an irredentist aggressive strategy for future territorial claims. Would you you be ok with that?
Additionally calling skopje "a country that has always been called Macedonia..." is hilarious! for your information there has never been a country called Macedonia for the last 2000 years and when there was they were Greeks so please read some history. And certainly the slavic tribes that migrated and settled in the Balkans around 500 A.C they have nothing to do with Macedonians. For god's sake they did not even have writing at that time in comparison with the Ancient Greek Kingdom of Macedon that had 1000 years earlier...
Additionally calling skopje "a country that has always been called Macedonia..." is hilarious! for your information there has never been a country called Macedonia for the last 2000 years and when there was they were Greeks so please read some history. And certainly the slavic tribes that migrated and settled in the Balkans around 500 A.C they have nothing to do with Macedonians. For god's sake they did not even have writing at that time in comparison with the Ancient Greek Kingdom of Macedon that had 1000 years earlier...
Skopje??
Posted by
Vega Byte
at
30 October 2007, 18:13 CET
I'm confused: since when is Skopje a country?? Sorry to say that, but it seems that all of your statements have a smack of Greek propaganda!
Your insinuation that Macedonia's only reason to fight for its right is "...an irredentist aggressive strategy for future territorial claims" is puerly crackbrained and definitely an evidence of incapacity!
Your insinuation that Macedonia's only reason to fight for its right is "...an irredentist aggressive strategy for future territorial claims" is puerly crackbrained and definitely an evidence of incapacity!
Yes Skopje!!! Since when Macedonia is a country?
Posted by
John Chrysos
at
30 October 2007, 18:57 CET
At least I have statements that rely on clearly laid out logical arguments. It is sad for you that your best response lacks any counterarguments against my points and rather it results in a tactic of disorientation...
The use of phrases like "purely crackbrained" and "definitely an evidence of incapacity" clearly demonstrate the level of conversation I can expect from you.
Unfortunately for you anyone with a clear mind who reads this mail chain will understand that "FYROM" patriots (and the foreign policy of their country itself) is characterized by complete intolerance and lack of respect towards their neighbors and any form of dialogue.
P.S. The European enlightenment period was in the mid 18th century but you can still get advantage of it, admittedly a little late..
The use of phrases like "purely crackbrained" and "definitely an evidence of incapacity" clearly demonstrate the level of conversation I can expect from you.
Unfortunately for you anyone with a clear mind who reads this mail chain will understand that "FYROM" patriots (and the foreign policy of their country itself) is characterized by complete intolerance and lack of respect towards their neighbors and any form of dialogue.
P.S. The European enlightenment period was in the mid 18th century but you can still get advantage of it, admittedly a little late..
Tolerance
Posted by
Vega Byte
at
31 October 2007, 10:33 CET
My apology if my tone in the previous replies seemed to be rude.
The fact that you apparently already expected "such a level" of conversation from me surprises me - how comes?
Just as an information: I'm German and I'm very interested in the development of the new countries in the Balcan, since my wife is Croatian! So it has nothing to do with patriotism!!
To me your statements are not that logical , since you fear that Macedonia might think of territorial claims! It is not understandable why Greece has this fear when the Macedonian constitution is stating clearly that no territorial claims can be made (here in Germany we had kind of a similar situation with Poland and its borderline when Germany reunited in the 90s).
I agree completely that it was not very wise (not to say stupid) to print the white tower of Thessaloniki on the new note back in the 90s - there was not reason to do that!
And thanks for the information of the European enlightenment - as it seems Greece didn't notice this period at all -
but there is always hope, hope is the cradle of mankind (as old Greeks used to say ;-) )
The fact that you apparently already expected "such a level" of conversation from me surprises me - how comes?
Just as an information: I'm German and I'm very interested in the development of the new countries in the Balcan, since my wife is Croatian! So it has nothing to do with patriotism!!
To me your statements are not that logical , since you fear that Macedonia might think of territorial claims! It is not understandable why Greece has this fear when the Macedonian constitution is stating clearly that no territorial claims can be made (here in Germany we had kind of a similar situation with Poland and its borderline when Germany reunited in the 90s).
I agree completely that it was not very wise (not to say stupid) to print the white tower of Thessaloniki on the new note back in the 90s - there was not reason to do that!
And thanks for the information of the European enlightenment - as it seems Greece didn't notice this period at all -
but there is always hope, hope is the cradle of mankind (as old Greeks used to say ;-) )
I am happy you mentioned...
Posted by
John Chrysos
at
31 October 2007, 15:49 CET
I see that you have knowledge of the bank note issue in the 90s! That pleases me.
However my friend I can't understand how can you fit the following two phrases (see below) in the same paragraph and not expect me to point out the obvious controversy.
"To me your statements are not that logical since you fear that Macedonia might think of territorial claims"
AND
"I agree completely that it was not very wise (not to say stupid) to print the white tower of Thessaloniki on the new note back in the 90s"
I think you proved my point.
To end with and since you are German you can imagine how Polish might feel if "Deutschland" issues a banknote with the picture of the Main Town Hall of the city of Gdansk otherwise known as Danzig...
Mit Respekt,
However my friend I can't understand how can you fit the following two phrases (see below) in the same paragraph and not expect me to point out the obvious controversy.
"To me your statements are not that logical since you fear that Macedonia might think of territorial claims"
AND
"I agree completely that it was not very wise (not to say stupid) to print the white tower of Thessaloniki on the new note back in the 90s"
I think you proved my point.
To end with and since you are German you can imagine how Polish might feel if "Deutschland" issues a banknote with the picture of the Main Town Hall of the city of Gdansk otherwise known as Danzig...
Mit Respekt,
Macedonia Name War
Posted by
anna v. smith
at
02 May 2008, 19:44 CET
Greece has always and forever had Prefectures,quite common to EU Countries: Northern Greece has the prefectures of Western Macedonia, Central Macedonia(capital Thessaloniki), Eastern macedonia and Thrace(shared w/ Bulgaria).Thus, the name Macedonia IS NOT A NEW ONE. What is NEW is the creation of a small-breakaway-Yugoslavian-nation, known before WWII as Vardarska=a river shared with Greece AHAIOs.
The name that this country selected bothers Greece: WHY, all of a sudden PICK A NAME that has been Greek for ever? Why NOT pick WEST ALBANIA or EAST BULGARIA even better, since the FYROMians speak a BULGARIAN dialect & most importantly their POLITICIANS OBTAIN BULGARIAN PASSPORTS?
WHY are the FYROMIAN's,all of a sudden IDENTIFYING themselves as DESCENDANTS of Alex the GREAT- through inane DNA-gene- experiments(that ONLY THEIR SMALL NATION has read-the rest of the Scientific Community has completely LAUGHED at this riculous Scientific result-only ONE experiment, was performed!!!) WHICH NATION does NOT consider it a provacation THAT FYROM blatanly named its airport ALEXANDER THE GREAT, insulting any reasonable person and Nation?And WHAT is anyone to conclude by MR. Gruevski's PLACEMENT OF A WREATH to a monument with the "MAP OF GREATER MACEDONIA" engraved on it?
The name that this country selected bothers Greece: WHY, all of a sudden PICK A NAME that has been Greek for ever? Why NOT pick WEST ALBANIA or EAST BULGARIA even better, since the FYROMians speak a BULGARIAN dialect & most importantly their POLITICIANS OBTAIN BULGARIAN PASSPORTS?
WHY are the FYROMIAN's,all of a sudden IDENTIFYING themselves as DESCENDANTS of Alex the GREAT- through inane DNA-gene- experiments(that ONLY THEIR SMALL NATION has read-the rest of the Scientific Community has completely LAUGHED at this riculous Scientific result-only ONE experiment, was performed!!!) WHICH NATION does NOT consider it a provacation THAT FYROM blatanly named its airport ALEXANDER THE GREAT, insulting any reasonable person and Nation?And WHAT is anyone to conclude by MR. Gruevski's PLACEMENT OF A WREATH to a monument with the "MAP OF GREATER MACEDONIA" engraved on it?
The Name of "macedonia"
Posted by
anna v. smith
at
02 May 2008, 20:20 CET
The map on the monument depicting a "Greater Macedonia" that Gruevsky placed a wreath on, contained 25% of GREECE's territory (just google it).
The students in FYROM's Schools are taught that the Greek Macedonia is occupied!!!! and that it is rightfully FYROM's!!!
I wonder if the Brits would object to CALEDONIA(Scotland)forming its own KINGDOM:);heck, the Scots can NOT even BREAK-AWAY!
How about we do away with North Ireland-there will only be ONE IRELAND....
What WOULD we think if president Calderon of MEXICO placed a wreath on a monument DEPICTING the MEXICAN BORDER as far NORTH as Wyoming???Oh yeah, Calderon would end-up in GUANTANAMO!!!!
The problem is the Press painting Greece and FYROM as modern day DAVID & GOLIATH when in actuality Greece is DAVID fighting AGAINST SUPERPOWER GOLIATHS, who want NATO expansion & GAS-PIPELINES @ALL COSTS!
Secondly, the press needs to STOP BELITTLING the issue, all but calling Greece spoiled & paranoid. The issue IS NOT ABOUT ALEX THE GREAT'S CULTURAL INHERITANCE to the SLAVS:) but FYROMS DESIGNS ON Greek Macedonia.
Mr. Milososki can "play" all the violins in the Cosmos about "poor Fyrom never attacking Greece,with FYROM being just a handful of people,etc." Hey, no one took Hitler seriously either.
With a super-power, LIKE THE USA next to FYROM, WHO IN THE WORLD WOULD BELIEVE Fyrom's American-Written-Constitution(on air force one) about NON-Invasive Territorial Claims?
The students in FYROM's Schools are taught that the Greek Macedonia is occupied!!!! and that it is rightfully FYROM's!!!
I wonder if the Brits would object to CALEDONIA(Scotland)forming its own KINGDOM:);heck, the Scots can NOT even BREAK-AWAY!
How about we do away with North Ireland-there will only be ONE IRELAND....
What WOULD we think if president Calderon of MEXICO placed a wreath on a monument DEPICTING the MEXICAN BORDER as far NORTH as Wyoming???Oh yeah, Calderon would end-up in GUANTANAMO!!!!
The problem is the Press painting Greece and FYROM as modern day DAVID & GOLIATH when in actuality Greece is DAVID fighting AGAINST SUPERPOWER GOLIATHS, who want NATO expansion & GAS-PIPELINES @ALL COSTS!
Secondly, the press needs to STOP BELITTLING the issue, all but calling Greece spoiled & paranoid. The issue IS NOT ABOUT ALEX THE GREAT'S CULTURAL INHERITANCE to the SLAVS:) but FYROMS DESIGNS ON Greek Macedonia.
Mr. Milososki can "play" all the violins in the Cosmos about "poor Fyrom never attacking Greece,with FYROM being just a handful of people,etc." Hey, no one took Hitler seriously either.
With a super-power, LIKE THE USA next to FYROM, WHO IN THE WORLD WOULD BELIEVE Fyrom's American-Written-Constitution(on air force one) about NON-Invasive Territorial Claims?
Opinion
Posted by
Stoyan Antonov
at
03 May 2008, 22:43 CET
My late uncle was born right there, in the Bulgarian part of Macedonia, and his sister and my cousins are there. The conflict of the widely disputed territorial claims of Fyrom towards Bulgaria, Greece and Albania is really existing, unfortunately widening by successful efforts of interest groups to teach and further advocate "Macedonian Slavic Nation" whose political irigin was tight up to Commintern during early 1920s- 1930s. Interestingly - four interest groups claim historic ties to Elexander - Greeks, Macedonians of non-Slavic origin, Macedonians of Slavic origin, and - of course even some Albanians who recently pointed out the Alexander's mother was Ilirian (=Albanian).
First, I belive that there are spiritual-moral values whcich should take priority over nationality and even religion. I can say that question of war-peace, of what type society you want to live in and others should bring closer even different races/nationalities, which is not seen historically in the Balkans. One reason for that is the direct influience of interest groups from other states, sometimes competing for more power in the Balkans, promoting boundary changes, boosting non-existing nations (Slavic Macedoniand with Alexander for Grandfather and King Samuil for fahter). In different stages of my life I have been in contact with representatives of all of these four groups - which currently try to gain Alexander.
First, I belive that there are spiritual-moral values whcich should take priority over nationality and even religion. I can say that question of war-peace, of what type society you want to live in and others should bring closer even different races/nationalities, which is not seen historically in the Balkans. One reason for that is the direct influience of interest groups from other states, sometimes competing for more power in the Balkans, promoting boundary changes, boosting non-existing nations (Slavic Macedoniand with Alexander for Grandfather and King Samuil for fahter). In different stages of my life I have been in contact with representatives of all of these four groups - which currently try to gain Alexander.
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Mistakes
"Skopje wants the name Macedonian Republic" is absolutely not true, because Macedonia wants its constitutional name "Republic of Macedonia" which is of course different of what you write.
The other mistake is "Macedonia-Skopje Republic". There was never been such proposal, the proposal was "Republic of Macedonia-Skopje".
And one more, regarding the recognition of the country's constitutional name. Its not "several more countries, including USA, China...". The constitutional name is recognized by 120 countries in the world, which is not "several".